Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3752646756_3831220641" --B_3752646756_3831220641 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3752646750_2467456063" --B_3752646750_2467456063 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Respectfully disagree. I certainly can=E2=80=99t afford megabytes-worth of = key exchange on my home VPN, and I=E2=80=99m sure my work would frown at th= e cost as well (especially scaling it up to all the employees, whose keys t= he work-server-appliance would need to cache). This could work only for pre= -provisioned/cached scenarios, and once the cache gets invalidated for what= ever reason, the cost becomes prohibitive. Bandwidth can never be this chea= p, as laws of physics limit it. Also, even if bandwidth is free =E2=80=93 f= actor in the latency caused by the need to download (and upload) public key= of such size... =20 As I see it, the McEliece use case should fit all of the following: Pre-defined or static group of communicating entities =E2=80=93 additions t= o the group must happen rarely; and Or the entities really don=E2=80=99t mind exchanging megabytes-worth of pub= lic keys =E2=80=93 but I can=E2=80=99t think of any situation where it=E2= =80=99s true; High tolerance to maintaining/caching large public keys for all the accepta= ble peers. =20 Might add =E2=80=9CCan=E2=80=99t afford larger ciphertexts of Lattice-based= KEMs=E2=80=9D, but in this case all the peers must be pre-provisioned, wit= h no possibility to re-key. -- Regards, Uri =20 There are two ways to design a system. One is to make is so simple there ar= e obviously no deficiencies. The other is to make it so complex there are no obvious deficiencies. = - C. A. R. Hoare =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: on behalf of Mike Hamburg Date: Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 08:55 To: Dustin Moody Cc: pqc-forum Subject: Re: [pqc-forum] Request for feedback on Classic McEliece =20 Hi Dustin and team, =20 I propose that virtual private networks are a use case where Classic McElie= ce may be a good fit. Of course not all VPN deployments are the same, but = often the parties deploying a VPN are willing to pay a premium for more con= fidence in the security of their communications. VPNs connect relatively i= nfrequently, perhaps a few times per day. They are often deployed in place= s where bandwidth is relatively cheap, such as offices or homes, so large p= ublic keys are affordable. Furthermore, VPNs have relatively static client= -server relationships, so the public keys can be cached depending on the de= sired forward secrecy window. =20 Regards, =E2=80=94 Mike On Nov 30, 2022, at 1:30 PM, 'Moody, Dustin (Fed)' via pqc-forum wrote: =20 All, =20 NIST is confident in the security of Classic McEliece and would be comforta= ble standardizing the submitted parameter sets (under a different claimed s= ecurity strength in some cases). However, it is unclear whether Classic McE= liece represents the best option for enough applications to justify standar= dizing it at this time. For genera lpurpose systems wishing to base their s= ecurity on codes rather than lattices, BIKE or HQC may represent a more att= ractive option.=20 =20 NIST would like feedback on specific use cases for which Classic McEliece w= ould be a good solution. =20 Thank you, =20 NIST PQC team --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pqc-forum" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pqc-forum+unsubscribe@list.nist.gov. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/list.n= ist.gov/d/msgid/pqc-forum/SA1PR09MB86692928B933935B57535F57E5159%40SA1PR09M= B8669.namprd09.prod.outlook.com. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pqc-forum" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pqc-forum+unsubscribe@list.nist.gov. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/list.n= ist.gov/d/msgid/pqc-forum/2D692D2D-6763-4216-83CC-4360AEBA5DD9%40shiftleft.= org. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pqc-forum" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pqc-forum+unsubscribe@list.nist.gov. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/list.n= ist.gov/d/msgid/pqc-forum/5C91A99E-AF32-45EE-A6A4-F4C8B82AF47C%40ll.mit.edu= . --B_3752646750_2467456063 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Res= pectfully disagree. I certainly can=E2=80=99t afford megabytes-worth of key= exchange on my home VPN, and I=E2=80=99m sure my work would frown at the c= ost as well (especially scaling it up to all the employees, whose keys the = work-server-appliance would need to cache). This could work only for pre-pr= ovisioned/cached scenarios, and once the cache gets invalidated for whateve= r reason, the cost becomes prohibitive. Bandwidth can never be this = cheap, as laws of physics limit it. Also, even if bandwidth is free =E2=80= =93 factor in the latency caused by the need to download (and upload) publi= c key of such size...

 <= /p>

As I see it, the McEliece use case should fit al= l of the following:

  • Pre-defined or static group of communicating entities =E2=80=93 add= itions to the group must happen rarely; and
    • Or the entities really don=E2=80=99t = mind exchanging megabytes-worth of public keys =E2=80=93 but I can=E2=80=99= t think of any situation where it=E2=80=99s true;
  • H= igh tolerance to maintaining/caching large public keys for all the acceptab= le peers.

 

Might add =E2=80=9CCan=E2=80=99t afford larger ciphertext= s of Lattice-based KEMs=E2=80=9D, but in this case all the peers must be pr= e-provisioned, with no possibility to re-key.

--

Regards,

Uri

 

There are two ways to design a system. One is to make= is so simple there are obviously no deficiencies.

The other is to make it so complex there are no obvious d= eficiencies.

   &n= bsp;            &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =    -  C. A. R. Hoare

 

 

 

 

 

 = ;

 

From: <p= qc-forum@list.nist.gov> on behalf of Mike Hamburg <mike@shiftleft.org= >
Date: Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 08:55
To: Du= stin Moody <dustin.moody@nist.gov>
Cc: pqc-forum <pqc-fo= rum@list.nist.gov>
Subject: Re: [pqc-forum] Request for feedba= ck on Classic McEliece

 

Hi Dustin and team,

 

I propose that virtual private= networks are a use case where Classic McEliece may be a good fit.  Of= course not all VPN deployments are the same, but often the parties deployi= ng a VPN are willing to pay a premium for more confidence in the security o= f their communications.  VPNs connect relatively infrequently, perhaps= a few times per day.  They are often deployed in places where bandwid= th is relatively cheap, such as offices or homes, so large public keys are = affordable.  Furthermore, VPNs have relatively static client-server re= lationships, so the public keys can be cached depending on the desired forw= ard secrecy window.

 

Regards,

=E2=80=94 Mike

=



On Nov 30, 2022, at 1:30 PM, 'Moody, Dusti= n (Fed)' via pqc-forum <pqc-forum@list.nist.gov> wrote:

 

All,

 

NIST= is confident in the security of Classic McEliece and would be comfortable = standardizing the submitted parameter sets (under a different claimed secur= ity strength in some cases). However, it is unclear whether Classic McEliec= e represents the best option for enough applications to justify standardizi= ng it at this time. For genera lpurpose systems wishing to base their secur= ity on codes rather than lattices, BIKE or HQC may represent a more attract= ive option. =

 

NIST would like feedback on specific u= se cases for which Classic McEliece would be a good solution.

 

Thank you,<= /p>

 

NIST PQC team

--&= nbsp;
You received this message because you are subscribed to the= Google Groups "pqc-forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this gro= up and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pqc-fo= rum+unsubscribe@list.nist.gov.
To view this discussion on the web visit https= ://groups.google.com/a/list.nist.gov/d/msgid/pqc-forum/SA1PR09MB86692928B93= 3935B57535F57E5159%40SA1PR09MB8669.namprd09.prod.outlook.com.

 

-- <= br>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "pqc-forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop r= eceiving emails from it, send an email to pqc-forum+unsubscribe@list.nist.gov.
To view t= his discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /a/list.nist.gov/d/msgid/pqc-forum/2D692D2D-6763-4216-83CC-4360AEBA5DD9%40s= hiftleft.org.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;pqc-forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pqc-forum+un= subscribe@list.nist.gov.
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